I understand why you're bothered about standardized tests being so geared towards college admissions. And I agree with Conor Friedersdorf's thought that we could use more optional subject tests. (I don't think I've read that article by him. Do you have a link?)
I don't agree that we shouldn't have the same test for all students, or at least a fairly comprehensive test that covers the core knowledge that we expect every student to have at graduation. You link to Natalie Wexler, so maybe you've read some of her arguments (that she mostly gets from E. D. Hirsch Jr.) about why we need a common knowledge curriculum and why standardized tests like the NAEP need to move away from "reading tests" and embrace more fully specific and clearly defined topics like specific topics/facts in history, science, etc.
Common knowledge is incredibly important for an individual's cultural literacy and a society's cultural cohesion. There's a sort of synergy when everyone shares the same body of knowledge. (Which is why everyone needs to read Hirsch!)
I haven't read too much of Wexler's work. I just started following her Substack a couple of months ago. Thanks for your recommendations, I will read more of her work on knowledge.
Agree that a "common knowledge" pool is desirable, in the broad sense. But two good US history classes could cover the same themes with different specific examples. How do we formulate a test that allows for this variation? Or is there a baseline of non-negotiable specific things people should know?
This is the AZ Civics Test -- 100 basic questions straight from the citizenship naturalization test. Honors students can pass this kind of a test in middle school, while students who might struggle to pass simply memorize the answers.
Lots of the specific details of school will be forgotten with time anyway ... so asking a bunch of specific facts on a graduation test probably wouldn't lead to more adults knowing those specific facts.
There's good curriculum & testing packages available -- like Cambridge Curriculum, or some subject-specific AP tests -- that lead to an immersion into a discipline.
I support the "menu of assessments" idea, although I know it runs afoul of federal law right now.
Thanks for the links! Also, I highly recommend Wexler's book "The Knowledge Gap" and evenly more recommend Hirsch's "Cultural Literacy" and his latest book "American Ethnicity."
I see nothing wrong with there being a baseline of non-negotiable specific things that everyone should know. Rather, I think it would be good to have, but there are a number of reasons why it might never happen (for example, the difficultly of making such a list that satisfies the right people, especially when we live in the middle of a culture war). Heterogeneity beyond that baseline is great though.
While it's true people forget a lot of what they learn, they do remember some things! And sometimes they remember stuff even though they aren't able to recall specific facts. Learning things the first time helps with learning it a second time later in life; recognition may fade slower than recall and is still really useful; perhaps schemas stick around longer than recall ability as well.
I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. As a local public school board member, I’m open to new ideas. Both our sons graduated from Az public schools and have been very successful. One graduated from Oxy College. The education enviro has changed immensely as has the political enviro. Just hoping we get smarter not more divided on what a successful education in Az looks like. Again, thank you
One question, do you have thoughts on whether there could be a successful push to require ESA students (and maybe other private school students?) to take the state standardized tests? I know that there were some republicans who wanted more accountability for ESA outcomes (I think Michelle Udall was one).
I don't think it would be successful unless Democrats take the majority in the legislature. Private schools don't want to administer state tests and neither do homeschooling families or other ESA vendors. My hope is that the discrepancy leads to a reform of the testing structure: something simpler and quicker for the lower grades, and a menu of assessments for the older grades.
I understand why you're bothered about standardized tests being so geared towards college admissions. And I agree with Conor Friedersdorf's thought that we could use more optional subject tests. (I don't think I've read that article by him. Do you have a link?)
I don't agree that we shouldn't have the same test for all students, or at least a fairly comprehensive test that covers the core knowledge that we expect every student to have at graduation. You link to Natalie Wexler, so maybe you've read some of her arguments (that she mostly gets from E. D. Hirsch Jr.) about why we need a common knowledge curriculum and why standardized tests like the NAEP need to move away from "reading tests" and embrace more fully specific and clearly defined topics like specific topics/facts in history, science, etc.
Common knowledge is incredibly important for an individual's cultural literacy and a society's cultural cohesion. There's a sort of synergy when everyone shares the same body of knowledge. (Which is why everyone needs to read Hirsch!)
Friedersdorf's point about standardized testing was made on Twitter. Here's two of his tweets on the topic:
1)https://twitter.com/conor64/status/1377405270322597888?t=adLe-xNjFBw6GbS4gJ8-Sg&s=19
2)https://twitter.com/conor64/status/1412950251766312960?t=MnGkHc5J2m1q9VVjzSB_sg&s=19
I haven't read too much of Wexler's work. I just started following her Substack a couple of months ago. Thanks for your recommendations, I will read more of her work on knowledge.
Agree that a "common knowledge" pool is desirable, in the broad sense. But two good US history classes could cover the same themes with different specific examples. How do we formulate a test that allows for this variation? Or is there a baseline of non-negotiable specific things people should know?
This is the AZ Civics Test -- 100 basic questions straight from the citizenship naturalization test. Honors students can pass this kind of a test in middle school, while students who might struggle to pass simply memorize the answers.
Lots of the specific details of school will be forgotten with time anyway ... so asking a bunch of specific facts on a graduation test probably wouldn't lead to more adults knowing those specific facts.
There's good curriculum & testing packages available -- like Cambridge Curriculum, or some subject-specific AP tests -- that lead to an immersion into a discipline.
I support the "menu of assessments" idea, although I know it runs afoul of federal law right now.
Thanks for the links! Also, I highly recommend Wexler's book "The Knowledge Gap" and evenly more recommend Hirsch's "Cultural Literacy" and his latest book "American Ethnicity."
I see nothing wrong with there being a baseline of non-negotiable specific things that everyone should know. Rather, I think it would be good to have, but there are a number of reasons why it might never happen (for example, the difficultly of making such a list that satisfies the right people, especially when we live in the middle of a culture war). Heterogeneity beyond that baseline is great though.
While it's true people forget a lot of what they learn, they do remember some things! And sometimes they remember stuff even though they aren't able to recall specific facts. Learning things the first time helps with learning it a second time later in life; recognition may fade slower than recall and is still really useful; perhaps schemas stick around longer than recall ability as well.
I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. As a local public school board member, I’m open to new ideas. Both our sons graduated from Az public schools and have been very successful. One graduated from Oxy College. The education enviro has changed immensely as has the political enviro. Just hoping we get smarter not more divided on what a successful education in Az looks like. Again, thank you
One question, do you have thoughts on whether there could be a successful push to require ESA students (and maybe other private school students?) to take the state standardized tests? I know that there were some republicans who wanted more accountability for ESA outcomes (I think Michelle Udall was one).
I don't think it would be successful unless Democrats take the majority in the legislature. Private schools don't want to administer state tests and neither do homeschooling families or other ESA vendors. My hope is that the discrepancy leads to a reform of the testing structure: something simpler and quicker for the lower grades, and a menu of assessments for the older grades.